The Trump Indictment Thread

Cmaier

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GermanSuplex

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He's a having a bad day in court today. He couldn't even muster a word when leaving court for break. Must be upset Hope Hicks isn't committing perjury for him.

*Hope Hicks legit did not know she was part of the scam. This was Trump, Cohen, Pecker and their allies clearly knowing they were skirting laws. It's all part of Trump's plan to break laws using sometimes sneaky methods (thought of by his criminal lawyers and advisors, not himself). Or sometimes just outright and blatantly, then saying "I had every right to do whatever I want." Anyways, Hicks just sort of really added a bunch of credibility to Cohen. Pecker did as well, if not intentionally.

There's also something incredible about Trump crying victimhood constantly, while also trashing Cohen - "He has no credibility!" Well, except for this one moment in this case, that may be true - but Trump fails to understand HE is the reason Cohen has little to no credibility. Except for, as I mentioned, in this case. Generally, when a foot soldier turns on the mob boss to the courts, they're usually telling the truth.

Not a good week for Sharty.
 
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Yoused

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Why would you want to talk to them? The answer is obvious. They’re racist, anti-semitic, and homophobic, and Trump will deliver on their agenda. They don’t care about the other stuff as long as Jews Will Not Replace Us and the cashiers at the piggly wiggly stop speaking spanish.

Well, they are absolutely right and you are an idiot if you cannot see the perfect unassailable logic of their position and why must you be so naïve you fuzzy-headed woke libtard, and fuck you with your dumb parlor-trick posting, you shit-for-brains.

That is why we do not want them here. (And I am not suggesting that they would know how to spell or use a word like "unassailable".)
 

Citysnaps

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Why would you want to talk to them? The answer is obvious. They’re racist, anti-semitic, and homophobic, and Trump will deliver on their agenda. They don’t care about the other stuff as long as Jews Will Not Replace Us and the cashiers at the piggly wiggly stop speaking spanish.

Help me understand something I don't think I fully grasp, if you will. Google isn't helping.

It's my understanding a Semite is someone who speaks a Semitic language. Which includes Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, and a handful of other languages (mostly used in ancient times, I suspect).

Arabic is spoken in many Middle Eastern countries. Thus, by definition, the people of those countries would be Semites. Right?

But... the phrase "anti-Semite" seems to always (or only) refer to someone who hates Jews. Is that just due to how the phrase evolved over time?
 

Cmaier

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Help me understand something I don't think I fully grasp, if you will. Google isn't helping.

It's my understanding a Semite is someone who speaks a Semitic language. Which includes Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, and a handful of other languages (mostly used in ancient times, I suspect).

Arabic is spoken in many Middle Eastern countries. Thus, by definition, the people of those countries would be Semites. Right?

But... the phrase "anti-Semite" seems to always (or only) refer to someone who hates Jews. Is that just due to how the phrase evolved over time?
The word comes to us from german, where it was first used in the mid-1880’s. From the beginning, it was only used to refer to jews. Wilhelm Marr coined the term to refer to his beliefs.
 

AG_PhamD

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Help me understand something I don't think I fully grasp, if you will. Google isn't helping.

It's my understanding a Semite is someone who speaks a Semitic language. Which includes Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, and a handful of other languages (mostly used in ancient times, I suspect).

Arabic is spoken in many Middle Eastern countries. Thus, by definition, the people of those countries would be Semites. Right?

But... the phrase "anti-Semite" seems to always (or only) refer to someone who hates Jews. Is that just due to how the phrase evolved over time?

Antisemitism specifically refers to hatred of Jews. Semitic people refers to people who lived in ancient times in the middle east (descendants of Shem). Semitic-languages also includes a bunch of other languages too from the region like Aramaic and Maltese. How can one really be against a a group of languages though?


Antisemitism I comes from the German “Antisemitisus”, a coined by FW Marr, a radical anti-Jewish racist from the 1800’s. The German term is also specific to Jews. This isn’t a term Jews invented to claim ownership of semiticness, it was a term imposed by people who promoted the hatred of Jewish people.

You could say it’s a misnomer because it specifically refers to Jews despite the fact Semitic people no longer exist and Semitic languages encompasses a number of distinct languages. ethic groups, etc. In the same way we use the term “tin foil” despite it being aluminum.

This question unfortunately problematic because it’s often used rhetorically by anti-Jewish people to create a bogus argument that Arabs can’t be antisemitic because they’re Semitic too. Or by activists saying Palestinians are Semitic so can’t be antisemitic. If the misnomer argument doesn’t work for you, Let’s be absolutely clear, Jews can be antisemitic too. Some will try to say Jews are somehow trying to claim they are the only “Semitic people” and deny that to other groups- whatever that means. Again, it wasn’t the Jews who invented the term.

This is obviously done to try to create this false reality where antisemitism isn’t a real thing / to excuse antisemitic beliefs or actions among some anti-Jewish people. It’s a very similar intention if you ask me by insinuating only white people can be racist against minorities because of some so called power imbalance that may or may not actually exist in the given situation.

I have no reason you have ill intent and believe you have genuine interest in the etymology. And you’re not wrong to recognize it doesn’t make much sense. Many Jews are beginning to prefer anti-Jewish.

As a side note it’s amazing how the word Zionist has basically become a slur. Zionism is the belief of the Jewish people having the right to an ancestral homeland in Israel. That’s it. It doesn’t imply expansionist policies of settlements or anything to do with occupying or fighting Palestine. 80-95% of Jews identify as Zionists. that basically means kill all the Israelis and at least 80% of the Jewish population. Those 5-15% are probably not actually religious Jews but identify ethnically, the religion and country kinda go with each other. I don’t think most non-Jewish people know this. So when people say “kill the Zionists”… they should be careful.

As a Jew, I don’t like that the majority of the House has voted to define antisemitism and include “criticism of Israel”. There is absolutely a type of subtle, politically correct sounding anti-Jewish ideology that uses “Israel” to get around using the word Jewish but uses the exact same stereotypes used for hundreds of years. Like Jews Israel is controlling the world. But it’s not always easy to discern and requires digging to one’s past statements and clarification of statements.

Like the people who say Congress is controlled by AIPAC (Israel = Jews = global control) fail to recognize AIPAC is AMERICAN money funding lobbying based on the interests of the Americans, like any other lobbying group. And AIPAC can’t donate to political parities and members, at least directly. Go take a look at some of the Unions (ie Teachers Union) or Big Pharma or Defense and get back to me on how AIPAC controls the US federal govt. It’s not surprising Americans have policy interests in foreign countries, many in fact have an interest in Palestine.

This whole AIPAC nonsense also insinuates only Jews donate to AIPAC (false) and American Jews are more committed to Israel over the US- a trope used throughout history, not just to Jews, to marginalize minorities/foreigners as untrustworthy. Once upon a time this same slur was used against Catholics (ie JFK) fearing political leaders would be subservient to the Pope.
 
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AG_PhamD

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Why would you want to talk to them? The answer is obvious. They’re racist, anti-semitic, and homophobic, and Trump will deliver on their agenda. They don’t care about the other stuff as long as Jews Will Not Replace Us and the cashiers at the piggly wiggly stop speaking spanish.
Things are a little more confusing on the anti-semitic front since Israel went nutso. Now, they love the Jews. They're the best people ever, and proof that an ethnostate can work!

I think there’s a conflation here between a large swath of voters. You know who’s the most unfavorable religious group? It’s not Jews. It’s not Muslims, they are second to last. It’s actually Mormons. Jews actually have highest favorability indexes and among evangelicals only 6% report having unfavorable opinions of Jews. I believe however high favorability could be related to stereotypes of Jewish success and absolutely Evangelical’s prophecy beliefs.

Take a look at PEW research- it’s actually very interesting: https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...ve-about-jews-mainline-protestants-catholics/

IIRC it also said evangelicals are the most disfavored among atheists. Keep that in mind.

Most of the antisemitism I’ve seen happening in recent times is overwhelmingly very mentally ill people and to a lesser extent pro-Palestine activists. I think Jews have fallen by the wayside from many Right Wing conspiracists- too busy worrying about other groups. That said some of the most deadly and heinous attacks on Jews have been committed by wing nut jobs.

Jon Goldblatt, the head of the ADL has basically said as much. In fact, he said at least a few years ago the democrats sudden change of opinion on Israel has been correlated to the increase in antisemitism and something to the effect that people making attacks in recent times “aren’t wearing MAGA hats”. Again this was at least a few years ago.

FYI- Goldblatt and the ADL are among the last people you’d expect to say something unfavorable about the left.

I am afraid however the rising streak of right wing populism and global isolationism might lead the right into believing we have no reason to support Israel and then conclude that the only possible we do is because of Jewish control- basically the beliefs that the far right conspiracy nuts and more recently swaths of the progressive left have adopted.

Antisemitism exists across the spectrum but particularly the ends- far right and far left. I don’t care who is committing it, it needs to be addressed, just like any other type of discrimination or hate.

Homosexuality gets pretty convoluted with research because acceptance of homosexual relationships vs. gay marriage and views of homosexuality vs transgenderism are different things. I always get frustrated when studies group “LGBTQIA+” because clearly the LGB vs T have very, very different acceptance levels and unique controversies. It’s research misconduct frankly. Homosexuality morality has very high levels of acceptance and even the majority of R’s support gay marriage now.

I don’t believe Trump is an antisemite. He let his daughter marry into a Jewish family, some of his top employees and advisors and lawyers were Jews. Would an anti-Black racist hire a bunch of Black people to high levels of their organization? He’s probably unnecessarily the most pro-Israel president by far beside clearly not being any type of Christian and American Jews overwhelmingly voting against him.

To be clear, just because I don’t think he’s antisemitic doesn’t mean I think he’s not a bad person. That also doesn’t mean he hasn’t done things that are offensive to Jews. In fact, I think he’s a really horrible person for a lot of reasons and dangerously narcissistic. I think his narcissistic-borderline personality traits and related inability to accept losses make it very difficult for him to condemn any group that demonstrates favorability towards him (ie Proud Boys). As a result, many of Trumps attempts to stop antisemitism and other bigotry in his base have fallen well short.
 

Cmaier

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I think there’s a conflation here between a large swath of voters. You know who’s the most unfavorable religious group? It’s not Jews. It’s not Muslims, they are second to last. It’s actually Mormons. Jews actually have highest favorability indexes and among evangelicals only 6% report having unfavorable opinions of Jews. I believe however high favorability could be related to stereotypes of Jewish success and absolutely Evangelical’s prophecy beliefs.

Take a look at PEW research- it’s actually very interesting: https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...ve-about-jews-mainline-protestants-catholics/

IIRC it also said evangelicals are the most disfavored among atheists. Keep that in mind.

Most of the antisemitism I’ve seen happening in recent times is overwhelmingly very mentally ill people and to a lesser extent pro-Palestine activists. I think Jews have fallen by the wayside from many Right Wing conspiracists- too busy worrying about other groups. That said some of the most deadly and heinous attacks on Jews have been committed by wing nut jobs.

Jon Goldblatt, the head of the ADL has basically said as much. In fact, he said at least a few years ago the democrats sudden change of opinion on Israel has been correlated to the increase in antisemitism and something to the effect that people making attacks in recent times “aren’t wearing MAGA hats”. Again this was at least a few years ago.

FYI- Goldblatt and the ADL are among the last people you’d expect to say something unfavorable about the left.

I am afraid however the rising streak of right wing populism and global isolationism might lead the right into believing we have no reason to support Israel and then conclude that the only possible we do is because of Jewish control- basically the beliefs that the far right conspiracy nuts and more recently swaths of the progressive left have adopted.

Antisemitism exists across the spectrum but particularly the ends- far right and far left. I don’t care who is committing it, it needs to be addressed, just like any other type of discrimination or hate.

Homosexuality gets pretty convoluted with research because acceptance of homosexual relationships vs. gay marriage and views of homosexuality vs transgenderism are different things. I always get frustrated when studies group “LGBTQIA+” because clearly the LGB vs T have very, very different acceptance levels and unique controversies. It’s research misconduct frankly. Homosexuality morality has very high levels of acceptance and even the majority of R’s support gay marriage now.

I don’t believe Trump is an antisemite. He let his daughter marry into a Jewish family, some of his top employees and advisors and lawyers were Jews. Would an anti-Black racist hire a bunch of Black people to high levels of their organization? He’s probably unnecessarily the most pro-Israel president by far beside clearly not being any type of Christian and American Jews overwhelmingly voting against him.

To be clear, just because I don’t think he’s antisemitic doesn’t mean I think he’s not a bad person. That also doesn’t mean he hasn’t done things that are offensive to Jews. In fact, I think he’s a really horrible person for a lot of reasons and dangerously narcissistic. I think his narcissistic-borderline personality traits and related inability to accept losses make it very difficult for him to condemn any group that demonstrates favorability towards him (ie Proud Boys). As a result, many of Trumps attempts to stop antisemitism and other bigotry in his base have fallen well short.
Sure. He’s not anti-semitic.


Even your excuses for him are tropes. ”he let his daughter marry a jew! some of his best friends are jews!”
 

AG_PhamD

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Some scholars, including Maimonides (perhaps the most influential Jewish scholar of all time), did not oppose the idea there were some Jews involved in the killing of Jesus. It’s not really that controversial but it’s a concept no one like to talk about since the dangers of associating universal generational blame.

What is controversial is the idea that all Jews everywhere, for the rest of time, are personally responsible for killing Jesus collectively and perhaps should all be held accountable for the actions of their ancestors from 2000 years
Given how the “Jewish Decide” has been handled for much of the past 2000 years, I think it’s a topic that deserves sensitive and precise handling and context aka NOT like MJT.

Is it wrong to say Germany commuted heinous crimes against Jews in WWII? Clearly not. Should Jews hold descendants of Nazis personally responsible for Nazi Crimes? Absolutely not.

I don’t think these laws would stop an academic discussion of this topic would be seen as antiemetic- it’s not discriminatory. If someone says the Jews killed Jesus and every single Jew is a bad person and needs to be held responsible so let’s kill them or kick them out of the country… that’s another story.

This woman is so radical and not intelligent and just off her rocker and he propensity towards conspiracy and not thinking is a public hazard.

Some Christian will have to explain to me though, if Jesus wasn’t crucified, wouldn’t that have kinda reduced the likelihood of Christianity becoming a religion? Kinda takes away the drama and symbolism if he just died in his sleep from natural causes.
 

AG_PhamD

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Sure. He’s not anti-semitic.


Even your excuses for him are tropes. ”he let his daughter marry a jew! some of his best friends are jews!”

I don’t want to be this as construed as defending Trump. But society needs to start getting on the same page of things and having some level of objectivity.

This is like when the right complains Joe Biden can barely string a coherent sentence together and is clearly in cognitive decline for years but will also accuse him of being a money laundering mastermind behind Hunter Biden. It can’t be both at this point.

The “fine people on both sides” in context almost certainly refers to the pro and anti tearing down of statues people and said there were bad people on one side. It’s an inexcusably incoherent conversation on Trumps part in a sense talking past the reporter and it’s his own fault for not being more clear and something that could be misconstrued.

I never hear anyone complain about Joe Biden’s numerous racist comments that get laughed off as gaffes? Are they? Or do they reveal what he actually thinks?

Anyways... why would Trump have Allen Weisselberg as his CFO for years? Or Michael Cohen as his long time personal lawyer and Jason Greenblatt his CLO. Harold Bernstein, longterm personal physician. When you have multi-billion dollar families marrying, parental approval often is a much more a factor and an official marriage an adherent orthodox Jew is a much more complicated task. You don’t think if someone like Trump said “no” to his prized daughter marrying that she and the husband be intimidatory involved in his life, let alone working in the White House along side him as an advisor.

We all know Trump is obsessed with loyalty why would he bring several of the aforementioned people from company into the White House, not to mention Jarred Kushner, Steve Mnuchin, Stephen Miller, Gary Cohn, Carl Ichan, etc, etc. I don’t think if you TRULY believe Jews are inherently uncommitted and untrustworthy you invite them into your close circle as POTUS.

How do I square this with Trump’s comments basically saying Democrat Jews should vote for him because of his Israel comments… First, it’s not really necessarily suggestive of dual loyalty at all. Mainly in this case I see this as Trumps personality disorder in action, mad that more American Jews don’t like him after all these *wonderful things* he’s feels done for the Jewish population (while democratic support has been falling for years), he’s entitled to their appreciation and vote. We all know that’s not how things work. That makes a lot more sense in the context of his actions and relationships.

It’s a narcissist’s frustration expecting admiration and not receiving it, that’s not antisemitism. It might have basis in stereotypes or ignorance, but that’s not necessarily antisemitism.

Antisemitism are the dads who tell their daughters, “you shouldn’t date that Jew because I will never let you marry him. I want my grandchildren to have blond hair and blue eyes, just like my 3 daughters”. (To quote one of my high school girlfriends dads re: me… this was in the mid 2000’s, not 1930 btw).

Antisemitism is the non-Jewish patient who refuses to be seen by a non-Jewish healthcare provider because “they don’t want to be touched by a dirty Jew” or who believe psychiatry is a program of Jewish mind control of gentiles. (Been there many times)

Antisemitism would be not hiring Jews to your top company positions because they can’t be trusted or because they might have undue influence society via culture or art or legislation.

Antisemitism is the seizing of forced registration of all assets and their eventual seizure because Jews have only been able succeed at everyone else’s expense.

Antisemitism is selectively blocking Jewish students from attending class because you assume you know their stance on Gaza/Israel because of their Jewish religion or heritage.

If people can’t recognize the difference between insensitivity, ignorance, etc and basically sees an equivalence between effectively a “micro aggression” with Nazi policy…

I think up until relatively recently most Jews felt the biggest threat in the US came from the far right. In some sense that’s true-
Particularly with mass killings, not really the case with vandalism and isolated attacks.

Increasingly, it’s the growing Progressive-Marxist faction of the Democratic Party and young people that’s concerning. And I think this is suddenly becoming very, very clear to a lot of Jews. There is legitimate talk if there will be an exodus to the right. I wouldn’t be surprised to see some measurable movement but I cannot fathom anywhere close to a majority tipping for Trump. The FBI is already wanting of domestic terrorism related to Gaza.
 
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GermanSuplex

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As a result, many of Trumps attempts to stop antisemitism and other bigotry in his base have fallen well short.

Other than his attempts to prove he’s antisemitic, racist and bigoted all the time, what attempts has he made to fix the problem?

Rhetorical question, the answer Is none, because in addition to his narcissism and being a mental midget, he’s also a bigot. A proud one at that. Then again, bigotry is a common side effect to egomaniacal mental midgets.
 

Eric

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Increasingly, it’s the growing Progressive-Marxist faction of the Democratic Party and young people that’s concerning.

Give me an example of this.
Dude just straight up said this without a hint of irony that we live in a country where the SCOTUS has overturned Roe v Wade and is about to give a madman with 91 felonies a get out of jail free card and blanket access to rule free from any threat of prosecution.

But yes, let's concern ourselves with the "growing Progressive-Marxist faction of the Democratic Party", by all means. :rolleyes:
 

Cmaier

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Dude just straight up said this without a hint of irony that we live in a country where the SCOTUS has overturned Roe v Wade and is about to give a madman with 91 felonies a get out of jail free card and blanket access to rule free from any threat of prosecution.

But yes, let's concern ourselves with the "growing Progressive-Marxist faction of the Democratic Party", by all means. :rolleyes:

It’s like a combination of Cliff Clavin and Sean Hannity. “you know, transgender is different than gay, and also the lark is nature’s most unhappy bird.”
 

GermanSuplex

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He's in contempt again, which means he'll get a finger-wagging from the judge before being allowed to go free and do it again.


 

rdrr

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He's in contempt again, which means he'll get a finger-wagging from the judge before being allowed to go free and do it again.


Don't you get the sense that he is trying to dare the Judge in actually jailing him. It will either get his base all frothed up, and he can scream on how corrupt the Judge is, WITCH HUNT, etc, or show how limp the Justice system is.
 

Eric

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Don't you get the sense that he is trying to dare the Judge in actually jailing him. It will either get his base all frothed up, and he can scream on how corrupt the Judge is, WITCH HUNT, etc, or show how limp the Justice system is.
Agreed, he is definitely gunning for it. Short term stay and will raise a ton off of it, at this point he really has nothing to lose. He sleeps all day anyway so he may as well let the state flip the bill for a cot.
 
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